The fruits of the traditional Mass speak for themselves. There is no contravening the reality of its effect on those who worship. No amount of gobbledygook will ever change that. The Gamaliel Principle is in effect. “If this is of God, there is nothing you can do to stop it, unless you even fight against God.” Mary’s Immaculate Heart will triumph. Praised forever be Jesus Christ!
Well, TLM attracted me to the church and I was a borderline satanist. I’m not baptized yet but would like to be. I’m not far right. I’m not angry. I’m just a guy trying to find his way to God.
So at minimum TLM has had the benefit of rescuing me from the underworld.
I would certainly take that over the ultra Protestant Novus Ordo Mass filled with irreverence and receiving our Lord on the hands like it’s some kind of transaction. Not to mention lay readers that think their contribution to a mass is something like a performance. Our eyes should be toward our Lord. Every mass is the sacrifice at Calvary. Seriously, take a breath. It’s not the Latin that makes the TLM, it is the Liturgy! Spend time and look at what was removed. Once you see, it’s really hard to go back.
What on earth are you going on about? You should go down to California and see what goes on there, or in Charlotte N.C. where truth is being destroyed. The TLM (Mass of the Ages) is authentic worship of God, and if you do not appreciate that, then go elsewhere to an "lgbtq" service. It is your choice.
J… Anus, you have some unresolved traumas and resentment issues… Time for you to stop wasting your time online and talk to a psychologist, (or a psychiatrist). Get better, buddy! 😁
'And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.' - Romans 8:28
Quite a revealing reaction which says far more about you than of the critical issue before the Church. It bespeaks clearly the masked but virulent "odium fidei" existent since the inception of the conciliar movement. It is at the heart of an institution in the process of deconstruction. It is the root of the insidious doubt in the episcopate and the theological academy longing for the affirmation of the zeitgeist. Ironically one might consider them two-faced. It is true, the vestment of the faith is merely "cosplay" for not few, but not those who appreciate the ineffable treasure of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The Janus moniker is metamorphosizing into an image of Melpomene/Thalia. The impulse is to laugh, but the situation you exhibit is far more the tragic.
Han von Balthazar reminded us back in the day that theology is an occupation of the knees, not the seat of the pants. The posterior of your trousers appears quite worn out.
The work is done on the knees, Janus. There will your CV find any degree of credence.
Unfamiliar with country clubs and gated communities I be; only a desert dweller. Admittedly your degree of unmitigated vitriol over theological and pastoral issues over which you have no cognizance or command is somewhat alarming. Apparently the Novus Ordo has been ineffective in lifting you up and out of the mire. The silence of the Vetus Ordo might allow you to hear something or Someone who might liberate you from the battle axe you wield. You might be surprised that I have for decades only been able to attend daily Mass according to the Novus Ordo.
Wow. Take a breath, pray, and then apologize. Way out of line, mean spirited, and off base. Im a Lord of the Rings fan not Game of Thrones and have enough degrees to qualify as not highly educated and love the TLM. 🤣
To be fair, regardless of liturgical preferences, the Vatican II documents did call for at least some retention of this language that no one speaks or understands as you put it, which is indeed Latin. This is definitely not the norm. I’m all for Leo wanting to at least try and implement SC’s intentions more faithfully to the text.
While both sides of the argument do get heated (as you yourself have certainly demonstrated) the fact is the church would be well served to actually try and conform to the actual vision of reform they actually prescribed at Vatican II.
The church wants unity. The church needs unity. Something somewhere has to be done to achieve this because whatever is happening now is not doing the trick as we can all see. The answer for unity isn’t to just exclude everyone who disagrees with one’s personal opinions or feelings.
If the Church wants unity, then she must continue to follow the Mass of the Ages, ad orientem. Vatican II divided the Church and liberal popes are carrying on the global agenda - we can now see the fruits.
“Cosplay”....of course. Except none of the characters are fictional in the one true sacrifice of the Mass. Strangely enough, we don’t require 10 con celebrants to Oblate Transubstantiation. Make sure you get those big screen theater screens installed at your original Mass, just like the super churches. 🤦♂️
most catholics for most of history have been uneducated. An uneducated laborer will tell you a man in a dress is not a woman, the academic class would disagree. Only the highly educated could twist reality to pretend two things as unequal as the TLM and NO are interchangable.
No one doubts that the Pope has the authority to regulate tradition as he sees fit. Some of us love the council documents, even though they were written disingenuously. How do you have a document that says Latin must be retained and then just ever use it? They all signed it. And then went home and destroyed Latin from the liturgy. It’s much more than a “spirit of the council.” Why are they not considered to be disobedient to the council? Why is it that only we who want to do it the old way are disobedient?
Those of us who want continuity are accused of rupture. And those who are actively seeking to rupture us from tradition are trying to claim that they alone have the continuity with tradition.
Aren't we all beginning to recognize that projection is the sharpest tool on the belt of the mendacious -- across the spectrum of the culture and the academic disciplines. And we do know who be the father of lies.
Interesting, so it is basically just a defense of TC by Roche using Francis's logic. No sharp conclusion is made. I must admit, I do love how the opponents of the TLM always call it "dead tradition."
It's amazing how one can string together a number of meaningful statements in such a way that they produce a meaningless whole. Did I miss something, or did he forget to include an actual argument here?
It strikes me as how phoned in this all is. Roche isn't even offering a swinging defense of TC, or how to make it work. He's just recycling quotes and saying this was really important to Francis. I would not be surprised if others caught the scent.
I'd say its more rationalization than any approximation of logic. The Bergoglian enterprise was rooted in a temperamental narcissism hellbent on scaffolding personal insecurity. Anything -- erroneous or not -- which would draw the spotlight upon himself was "the best way" for him. Simply regard his final resting place at Santa Maria Maggiore illuminated, with Jorge's stage name FRANCISCUS. Such humility just blends in? His sycophants sport the same character.
I do hope leadership avails themselves of the clear and relevant objections other cardinals will have in response to many of these conclusions. Pope Leo XIV, may God bless him, has humbly acknowledged his need for collegial input. May he "reach into to the margins" as it were, avoid the temptation to straw-man opposition, and rationally consider the pleas and arguments of those severely frustrated by this document, and so many others like it.
Full of the usual lies, Your Eminence. Maybe next time you can come up with some new ones? Oh. And FYI, the Liturgy was not “reformed”: It was totally rewritten and cobbled together using older texts to make it look like it was reformed and had continuity with the previous forms. Bugnini, its principal cobbler, wrote about this very fact. Perhaps you should read his readily available accounts.
Except that is actually a Lie and it did was reformed. Funny isn't is reformed when convenient and is "just a collection of older text" when is not convenient.
If people want to attend the Latin Mass, we should let them! People are attracted by different things. No one is recommending abolishing the Novus Ordo, just allowing the TLM to naturally flourish.
And before you say "we need 1 rite in the Latin Church for unity"... the Latin Church already has multiple liturgical rites (Ambrosian, Anglican-Use, Zaire, Braga, Mozarabic, etc.) in it, not to mention the other liturgical rites in the Eastern Church (eg, Coptic, Byzantine, Armenian, Maronite, Syro-Malabar, Chaldean, etc.)
I love your brilliance. It rises higher than the clouds. It resembles the dawn star (cf Is 14).. It is full of sound and fury. Those who bathe in it shiver. We stare at your comments and ponder your fate. Is this the man with an Ivy League degree? 60 years ago, your star led the people of promise to a new day. The promise of true liberty of the sons of God. Pleasure without the constraint. This is what we are made for! And you provided us with the technological sacrament that will give it to us. Let us bow down and sacrifice our future to the Morning Star! Run uneducated masses! Run! Run and fall at his knees and reverence. We will have no more future, but we will have pleasure!
I have degrees in music education and classical guitar performance along with a degree in Culinary. I have taught, and worked in recording studios as an engineer and producer.
Reform, reform, reform ad nauseam, plainly someone is in the wrong set up.
The Latin rite has its origins in North Africa. the Roman province of Africa, and is conceivably the most ancient, even with later elaborations, of Church rites.
The Novus Irdo was confected in the latter half of the 20c by people with little liturgical expertise but with much in the way of «agenda».
Ah, the agenda...never articulated clearly, but disclosed by actions, and the wink and the nod so often exhibited by clergy and religious in the immediate aftermath of "the" council. It was quite alarming to be sure, but to be sure we chose to ignore it because it suited our concupiscence one way or another -- and then there was the erroneous understanding of evangelical obedience which allowed us to mute what we saw was transpiring.
Roche can't put forth a reasonable rationale for TC or the determined destruction of the TLM because it's clear the fruits of VII are rotten and aren't what they claimed was the objective of the documents; the statements of the various participants in VII reveal the intent to protestantize the Mass and the stated beliefs & personal behaviors of those who support TC are all the same.
Thank you for providing this. I find it hard to press the ‘like’ button because I don’t like what Cardinal Roche wrote, apparently still current thinking in the Vatican. I had hoped for a lessening of extremism. Even a re-reading of Sacrosanctum Concilium to promote reform of the N.O. in a more traditional way.
To my knowledge Cdl Roche is not considered to be an expert on liturgy. Quite the contrary. There is nothing " dead" about the TLM. Tradition will always be at the center of the Catholic Church. The liturgy no exception. One would have thought that he would be far more concerned about the abuse of teenage boys by homosexual clergy.
Sorry but I can't help thinking that the picture of him seems very suitable.
Not persuasive: Gratuitously argumentative tone. Unsupported assertions. Fails to address counterarguments and evidence. Among other things. Disappointing that the system tolerates amateurishness such as this.
The fruits of the traditional Mass speak for themselves. There is no contravening the reality of its effect on those who worship. No amount of gobbledygook will ever change that. The Gamaliel Principle is in effect. “If this is of God, there is nothing you can do to stop it, unless you even fight against God.” Mary’s Immaculate Heart will triumph. Praised forever be Jesus Christ!
Well, TLM attracted me to the church and I was a borderline satanist. I’m not baptized yet but would like to be. I’m not far right. I’m not angry. I’m just a guy trying to find his way to God.
So at minimum TLM has had the benefit of rescuing me from the underworld.
You are in my prayer.
God bless you in your journey Ulysses. If you haven't already been introduced to it, discover the Rosary, which is a love story of our Faith.
I’ve been praying rosary for about 4 years now. :)
Excellent :) We will keep you in prayer.
It’s God’s timing under which I live.
'Educated class'. Interesting. I guess Elitism can be found everywhere.
God bless you just the same.
Our Lady Will help you, Ulysses !!!
Ando TLM Will help you a lot !!!
I wouldn’t have converted but for the TLM being nearby. If I wanted Lutheran liturgy I would’ve stayed a Lutheran
What in the world are you talking about? None of that exists except in your warped little brain
I would certainly take that over the ultra Protestant Novus Ordo Mass filled with irreverence and receiving our Lord on the hands like it’s some kind of transaction. Not to mention lay readers that think their contribution to a mass is something like a performance. Our eyes should be toward our Lord. Every mass is the sacrifice at Calvary. Seriously, take a breath. It’s not the Latin that makes the TLM, it is the Liturgy! Spend time and look at what was removed. Once you see, it’s really hard to go back.
Pax
Aren't you the special boy. Been awhile since you've been to confession?
What on earth are you going on about? You should go down to California and see what goes on there, or in Charlotte N.C. where truth is being destroyed. The TLM (Mass of the Ages) is authentic worship of God, and if you do not appreciate that, then go elsewhere to an "lgbtq" service. It is your choice.
J… Anus, you have some unresolved traumas and resentment issues… Time for you to stop wasting your time online and talk to a psychologist, (or a psychiatrist). Get better, buddy! 😁
Lol, so mean!
Rather so desperate, so vacuous. There is nothing there but a mask.
lol, also mean
Such an uncharitable response.
'And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.' - Romans 8:28
All ad hominem attacks. Speaks volumes of you.
That you cannot comprehend the liturgy of your fathers speaks even worse.
Quite a revealing reaction which says far more about you than of the critical issue before the Church. It bespeaks clearly the masked but virulent "odium fidei" existent since the inception of the conciliar movement. It is at the heart of an institution in the process of deconstruction. It is the root of the insidious doubt in the episcopate and the theological academy longing for the affirmation of the zeitgeist. Ironically one might consider them two-faced. It is true, the vestment of the faith is merely "cosplay" for not few, but not those who appreciate the ineffable treasure of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
You went to Yale? For what? Drama?
The Janus moniker is metamorphosizing into an image of Melpomene/Thalia. The impulse is to laugh, but the situation you exhibit is far more the tragic.
Han von Balthazar reminded us back in the day that theology is an occupation of the knees, not the seat of the pants. The posterior of your trousers appears quite worn out.
The work is done on the knees, Janus. There will your CV find any degree of credence.
Unfamiliar with country clubs and gated communities I be; only a desert dweller. Admittedly your degree of unmitigated vitriol over theological and pastoral issues over which you have no cognizance or command is somewhat alarming. Apparently the Novus Ordo has been ineffective in lifting you up and out of the mire. The silence of the Vetus Ordo might allow you to hear something or Someone who might liberate you from the battle axe you wield. You might be surprised that I have for decades only been able to attend daily Mass according to the Novus Ordo.
You gotta go deeper.
Yale isn't Catholic. I bet you play folk guitar too.
Janus you’re so two-faced😂
“I went to Yale…” 🤡
Sure you did! The free, no credit, “open to everybody” Yale courses… 😂
Wow. Take a breath, pray, and then apologize. Way out of line, mean spirited, and off base. Im a Lord of the Rings fan not Game of Thrones and have enough degrees to qualify as not highly educated and love the TLM. 🤣
To be fair, regardless of liturgical preferences, the Vatican II documents did call for at least some retention of this language that no one speaks or understands as you put it, which is indeed Latin. This is definitely not the norm. I’m all for Leo wanting to at least try and implement SC’s intentions more faithfully to the text.
While both sides of the argument do get heated (as you yourself have certainly demonstrated) the fact is the church would be well served to actually try and conform to the actual vision of reform they actually prescribed at Vatican II.
The church wants unity. The church needs unity. Something somewhere has to be done to achieve this because whatever is happening now is not doing the trick as we can all see. The answer for unity isn’t to just exclude everyone who disagrees with one’s personal opinions or feelings.
If the Church wants unity, then she must continue to follow the Mass of the Ages, ad orientem. Vatican II divided the Church and liberal popes are carrying on the global agenda - we can now see the fruits.
Thanks Diane for your untiring stand for truth.
Do we eliminate Masses in Spanish in the name if unity then?
“Cosplay”....of course. Except none of the characters are fictional in the one true sacrifice of the Mass. Strangely enough, we don’t require 10 con celebrants to Oblate Transubstantiation. Make sure you get those big screen theater screens installed at your original Mass, just like the super churches. 🤦♂️
Mmm no repetition. Just bringing it down for you. The instructions on your box state “remedial”.
most catholics for most of history have been uneducated. An uneducated laborer will tell you a man in a dress is not a woman, the academic class would disagree. Only the highly educated could twist reality to pretend two things as unequal as the TLM and NO are interchangable.
Platitude time from j.ANUS 🤡, “the maladjusted”…
If you can’t make an argument without ad hominems, it’s not worth the time to consider it.
No one doubts that the Pope has the authority to regulate tradition as he sees fit. Some of us love the council documents, even though they were written disingenuously. How do you have a document that says Latin must be retained and then just ever use it? They all signed it. And then went home and destroyed Latin from the liturgy. It’s much more than a “spirit of the council.” Why are they not considered to be disobedient to the council? Why is it that only we who want to do it the old way are disobedient?
Those of us who want continuity are accused of rupture. And those who are actively seeking to rupture us from tradition are trying to claim that they alone have the continuity with tradition.
Your last paragraph might be the sharpest and most concise summary of the situation I’ve ever read. And I’ve read a lot of them.
Aren't we all beginning to recognize that projection is the sharpest tool on the belt of the mendacious -- across the spectrum of the culture and the academic disciplines. And we do know who be the father of lies.
Interesting, so it is basically just a defense of TC by Roche using Francis's logic. No sharp conclusion is made. I must admit, I do love how the opponents of the TLM always call it "dead tradition."
So dead they keep having to find new ways to try and kill it.
It's amazing how one can string together a number of meaningful statements in such a way that they produce a meaningless whole. Did I miss something, or did he forget to include an actual argument here?
🤣 I was thinking the same.
Word salad in the form of prose. Modernists are masters of it.
It strikes me as how phoned in this all is. Roche isn't even offering a swinging defense of TC, or how to make it work. He's just recycling quotes and saying this was really important to Francis. I would not be surprised if others caught the scent.
That is what I noticed, it's basically - here is Francis's logic. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'd say its more rationalization than any approximation of logic. The Bergoglian enterprise was rooted in a temperamental narcissism hellbent on scaffolding personal insecurity. Anything -- erroneous or not -- which would draw the spotlight upon himself was "the best way" for him. Simply regard his final resting place at Santa Maria Maggiore illuminated, with Jorge's stage name FRANCISCUS. Such humility just blends in? His sycophants sport the same character.
He loved the limelight.
I do hope leadership avails themselves of the clear and relevant objections other cardinals will have in response to many of these conclusions. Pope Leo XIV, may God bless him, has humbly acknowledged his need for collegial input. May he "reach into to the margins" as it were, avoid the temptation to straw-man opposition, and rationally consider the pleas and arguments of those severely frustrated by this document, and so many others like it.
Full of the usual lies, Your Eminence. Maybe next time you can come up with some new ones? Oh. And FYI, the Liturgy was not “reformed”: It was totally rewritten and cobbled together using older texts to make it look like it was reformed and had continuity with the previous forms. Bugnini, its principal cobbler, wrote about this very fact. Perhaps you should read his readily available accounts.
Except that is actually a Lie and it did was reformed. Funny isn't is reformed when convenient and is "just a collection of older text" when is not convenient.
Important update! Thank you for all your great work, Diane!
If people want to attend the Latin Mass, we should let them! People are attracted by different things. No one is recommending abolishing the Novus Ordo, just allowing the TLM to naturally flourish.
And before you say "we need 1 rite in the Latin Church for unity"... the Latin Church already has multiple liturgical rites (Ambrosian, Anglican-Use, Zaire, Braga, Mozarabic, etc.) in it, not to mention the other liturgical rites in the Eastern Church (eg, Coptic, Byzantine, Armenian, Maronite, Syro-Malabar, Chaldean, etc.)
See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_particular_churches_and_liturgical_rites#/media/File:Catholic_Liturgical_Rites_Chart.png
They are hell bent on destroying us
Wow such pastoral care, all assumptions. ¨Go join the Mormons"? Did the Holy spirit taught you that one?
taught because past tense troll
fine...... "Has the Holy Spirit taught you that one?"
I'm not MAGA, Let me guess, Pro abortion, pro contraception, pro porn?
Go read Costi Conubii
The Church teaches contraceptives are wrong.
The way faith works is that you conform yourself to the teachings of the Church, not think the doctrines should change to suit your desire to sin.
The Church teaches contraception is a mortal sin.
Only evil thinks contraception is good.
I love your brilliance. It rises higher than the clouds. It resembles the dawn star (cf Is 14).. It is full of sound and fury. Those who bathe in it shiver. We stare at your comments and ponder your fate. Is this the man with an Ivy League degree? 60 years ago, your star led the people of promise to a new day. The promise of true liberty of the sons of God. Pleasure without the constraint. This is what we are made for! And you provided us with the technological sacrament that will give it to us. Let us bow down and sacrifice our future to the Morning Star! Run uneducated masses! Run! Run and fall at his knees and reverence. We will have no more future, but we will have pleasure!
I have degrees in music education and classical guitar performance along with a degree in Culinary. I have taught, and worked in recording studios as an engineer and producer.
All of a piece...
Reform, reform, reform ad nauseam, plainly someone is in the wrong set up.
The Latin rite has its origins in North Africa. the Roman province of Africa, and is conceivably the most ancient, even with later elaborations, of Church rites.
The Novus Irdo was confected in the latter half of the 20c by people with little liturgical expertise but with much in the way of «agenda».
Ah, the agenda...never articulated clearly, but disclosed by actions, and the wink and the nod so often exhibited by clergy and religious in the immediate aftermath of "the" council. It was quite alarming to be sure, but to be sure we chose to ignore it because it suited our concupiscence one way or another -- and then there was the erroneous understanding of evangelical obedience which allowed us to mute what we saw was transpiring.
Reform? More accurately mutilation.
Roche can't put forth a reasonable rationale for TC or the determined destruction of the TLM because it's clear the fruits of VII are rotten and aren't what they claimed was the objective of the documents; the statements of the various participants in VII reveal the intent to protestantize the Mass and the stated beliefs & personal behaviors of those who support TC are all the same.
Thank you for providing this. I find it hard to press the ‘like’ button because I don’t like what Cardinal Roche wrote, apparently still current thinking in the Vatican. I had hoped for a lessening of extremism. Even a re-reading of Sacrosanctum Concilium to promote reform of the N.O. in a more traditional way.
To my knowledge Cdl Roche is not considered to be an expert on liturgy. Quite the contrary. There is nothing " dead" about the TLM. Tradition will always be at the center of the Catholic Church. The liturgy no exception. One would have thought that he would be far more concerned about the abuse of teenage boys by homosexual clergy.
Sorry but I can't help thinking that the picture of him seems very suitable.
Not persuasive: Gratuitously argumentative tone. Unsupported assertions. Fails to address counterarguments and evidence. Among other things. Disappointing that the system tolerates amateurishness such as this.
You’re awesome Diane