“Catholicus non est, qui a Romana ecclesia in fidei doctrina discordat.
He is not a Catholic who is at variance with the Roman Church in the doctrine of the faith.”
Hmmm….lets see….Sarah Mullaly is in full communion? Pagan idolatry is part of the Doctrine of Faith? False religions are in communion with the Church? Blessing disordered unions is part of the Doctrine of Faith? Blessing blocks of ice is part of the Doctrine of Faith? Leaving the Filioque out of the Creed is part of the Doctrine of Faith?
And the list goes on….and Cardinal Mueller, what about your home country, Germany? Do they uphold the Doctrine of Faith?
In other words keeping with the Pre Councilor Magisterium places one in schism…? Seriously ….?
Coming from a guy who said you don't have to believe in a literal bodily resurrection of Christ. That's Catholicism 101, an absolute necessity of faith... who is at variance with the doctrine of the faith?
Thank you, Mary Jane, for pointing out some of the present day contradictions that Cardinal Mueller traipses on by, pulling his skirts well up, so as to avoid reality. But it’s also historical mishmash since there are many examples of Patristic and medieval practices staying in concord with Rome in a variety of ways. Of course things were regularized later, but that doesn’t mean that the Patristic or medieval practices were somehow previously in schism. His naive presentism is strange since he must know these historical examples. “Answering” the SSPX should mean continuing the dialogue with them. But Cardinal Mueller seems to propose precisely the opposite!
So this cardinal says the SSPX is not following the true Catholic faith.
Let's see....
Allowing rainbow masses and celebrating and blessing sin, and sinful art, who would do that?
Allowing pachimamma art into the walls of scared Catholic spaces, who would do that?
The church in Germany, what on earth is going on there, who would allow that?
Saying that all gods are the same as Jesus and all religions lead to Jesus, AKA God, who would do that? Shall we go on?
VS
Consecrating faithful Catholic Bishops who follow cannon law and the Catechism, even though they asked for permission did not get the charity that is their due, whose churches are packed! Opposed the the former's attendance rate.
Now would someone PLEASE tell us, who is following the true Catholic faith of old?
I think we ALL know who. What is sad is that this cardinal standing up for the faith does not seem to know it at all. How? What is possessing these people?
Do they even know that Catholics want the Catholic faith of old not what is happening? Who are they listening to?
Agreed, but what's a bit strange is that those words are used as slurs even while the Vatican seemingly has no issue with schismatics and Protestants (amongst others), and treats them as fine where they are.
Do Lefebrists want to become Lutherans? What else could they expect if they defy the pope and appoint their own bishops? Let's pray they step back from the edge and ask, one more time, for talks directly with Pope Leo. SSPX would need to enter such talks rejecting the advice given by some of its clergy that Catholics should not attend the Novus Ordo Mass. SSPX must also acknowledge that it and Pope Leo cannot change the Vatican 2 documents, which ironically were voted for by Abp. Lefebvre. Instead, my hope is SSPX asks for the interpretation and implementation of those documents by the pope to be more consistent with the intent of Vatican 2 voters such as Pope Benedict and less radical than acts like Pope Francis's Abu Dhabi statement. Finally. I hope Pope Leo returns to Pope Benedict's approach to TLM. There is no rational reason to strangle the Mass we Catholics celebrated for tens of centuries, accurately called by many the Mass of the Saints.
I, of course, have no personal knowledge here, but I sense that the old Francis hierarchy that Pope Leo has kept on is very progressive and is giving him some bad advice. In particular, I'm referencing Cardinals Fernandez and Parolin. No father would turn away a son without trying everything to keep the son close. Instead, Pope Leo shuffled SSPX off to Cardinal Fernandez.
I agree the NO could and should be more expressly sacrificial, but it really isn't just a communal meal. There is sacrificial language in the NO. Both Mass forms have beauty and both could no doubt be improved.
Common misunderstanding. Pius V merely codified it. It already existed and had existed for centuries, possibly going back to the apostles. It's impossible to know because in the first centuries of the Church, much information is gone.
Of you look at a Roman missal from 1970 (the one codified by Pius V) and a missal from 100 years before, they're almost identical except for a few minor changes.
But they weren't all Roman missals there are others which were banned by Pius V. And one notes that the entire New Testament was written in Greek, which certainly implies that the early Mass was not said in Latin but in Greek.
Apparently, by appointing Bishops to carry on the magisterial teaching of the church, the SSPX is going to be in schism? I get it that they all want to hang on to V2 But personally I don’t see the fruit. I am not a TLM-er but the appeal to that mass has grown and I am considering it vs. all of the non-sense. Let them be a rite in the Church. I, like so many non-SSPX lay people, are getting very tired of where this has been going since my youth - post Vatican 2. The leaders and many Cardinals are allowing or promoting sinful attitudes and policies vs. helping people see Christ and His cross. I turned back from a life of sin because I met Christ and fell in love with HIM. They do not ever talk like that. Their anti-magisterial teaching defies anyone, including the priests in their diocese, to depart from THEIR teaching and dismantling of what we seek!! The “magisterial” or holy or mystical. If our church doesn’t wake up and purge all of this crap, this complex insanity, there are people who WILL NOT FOLLOW those misguided men. They are men. Men who are themselves deceived and who are trying to deceive others. Worse yet, they think their power and influence is something they can wield under the guise of “dialogue” or “synodality” but they are just weak men. Christ is mighty and valiant and will have the last Word. I hope to see “the gates lift high their heads to let Christ enter” soon! I can almost not tolerate them or this BS any more.
Well said. The plea of the lambs for faithful Shepherds. Stay strong in your faith brother, Jesus was King at His trial, He was King on the cross, as He was King at His resurrection. His suffering, and the suffering of the church in this crisis, will be to our benefit, and will, somehow, show He remains King of the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church.
Yes we do. Christ commanded us to pray for our enemies and those who hate us. That, mon Ami, is the Synodal religion headquartered in Rome, the seat of antichrist.
With all due respect to Cardinal Mueller, who sometimes gets it right, the accusation that Rome is departing from the Catholic faith is not near as scandalous as the fact of it.
So the Rhine rushes into the Tiber, Cardinal Muller does a Nelsonian, puts the telescope to his blind eye, so could not see that there are a few Chinese appointed bishops that the Vatican only approved post hoc!!?? This is five star V2 relativism. These are bishops who have only ever read an adulterated Chinese bible and indulge in some Sino-eucharist mass and the SSPX is to be excommunicated and the Chinese bishops welcomed into the fold. Perhaps Cardinal Muller would be good enough to explain to a simple Catholic like me how this can be justified and where in the Catechist I might find justification of this ambiguity ??
Prevost totally avoids the question. Bishops appointed by a Communist regime are part of the Catholic Church but the SSPX is in schism. And Fr James Martin, the Sodomite pied piper gets more than just a pass, he’s told to “keep up the good work.”
Guess what? It's the silence of Cardinal Mueller, Cardinal Burke, and Cardinal Sarah, in the face of the apostasy destroying the Church under Bergoglio and Leo, that has fueled the crisis in the Church, to which the SSPX is prophetically responding! So, Cardinal Mueller, the ball is in your court -- to stand up against this apostasy - so that the schism will not have to occur!
One of the worst sins of every human is pride. It is very difficult to oneself recognize it. Why recognize it if you have the truth, you are the true one, you can judge whatever happens? And the the problem of every schismatic and/or heretic. In sum, that is the problem of the FSSPX ❕
Why do people from the bottom to the top cry "schism" at the disciplinary delict of episcopal consecration without the papal mandate? I believe that Francis already declared that Rome was 'detached" from the historic Catholic Church, and now Muller wants to ensure Prevost confirms the obvious schism with the faith of our ancestors.
Protestants claim to be united in essentials, and free on non-essentials. The only universal point of Protestant agreement is "Not Catholic". It seems too apparant that is is the sinodal church that has left the fold.
Cardinal Müller's proposal of commission is not only sound; it's the only answer. Obviously, such a commission should have been up and running months ago, and there is precious little time to get it staffed and running before Wednesday. I hope the Holy Father will announce that such a commission is in the works. But I fear that will not delay the consecrations. And I fear that Leo XIV is okay with that and will excommunicate the SSPX priests involved. Above all, I worry that the pope is sending a message about tradition--and not just about the TLM. Is he going to become Francis, only more so?
Cardinal Mueller roars, what he said, (what he meant). There must be no ambiguity (Bergoglio like responses are unCatholic, and not appropriate for the moment, be a College of Cardinals, be a Pope, act now). It is scandalous to charge the Church has departed from the faith (They have charged the Tiber has been polluted and theological scoundrels have left our right flank exposed, we must move decisively, to preserve the integrity of the faith). Form a new Ecclesia Dei (take this away from Tucho, and place the work of the church into the hands of the mature, the faithful, and charge them to heal the sins of Parolin, Paglia and Roche, so that we preserve faithful souls who recognize a crisis, but do not want schism).
If the Chinese Communist government can choose their own bishops, then why can't the SSPX? What is in the " secrete agreements " that Francis made with communists. Persecution of Catholics has increased since these " agreements." Cardinal Zen was jailed, once again, fairly recently, and Francis did nothing to defend him or to get his release. These agreements have hurt Catholics and actually aided the communists. Aiding communists, either directly or indirectly, results in automatic excommunication ( Pius XII ).
It's ironic too that the change in canon law about consecrations opposed to the roman pontiff as automatic excommunication, was only even introduced in response to the Chinese communists consecrating communist bishops. Before that, it was never ever a schismatix excommunicable offense.
The fundamental source of this situation has firstly recognised, as long as that is not happen we still keep this kind of actions.
1. If a separate group of Cardinals come together in a secret meeting to break the rules of the Council on the first meeting of the general assemblée, isn't that an objective sin not trusting the Holy Spirit and further an clear act against the Pope? Can that ever bring good fruits!? Do we see here the fruits of more than 60 years of fraternal war? Isn't it that the applauding Councilfathers were confirming this sin for themselves
2. Isn't it that calling for "embryonic ambiguities" into a Preparatory Council Document a clear betrayal concerning the Pope and the Council fathers, coming forth from not trusting the Holy Spirit? Can that ever bring good fruits!? And when some of these ambiguities are removed from the draft by the Central Preparatory Commission and then secretly put back in the final version, Isn't that à clear betrayal too. And when Ottaviani was explaining this most important betrayal concerning the scheme on Liturgy, his microphone was turned off halfway for being over time. Isn't that explaing such betrayal is of more importance than being overtime? Anyway the applauding Council fathers weren't they confirming the sin of the betrayal by the "embryonic ambiguities" by their applaus.
How can these acts bring forth good fruits?
We still see the fraternal war during all the years during and after the Council coming from the above betrayals
“Catholicus non est, qui a Romana ecclesia in fidei doctrina discordat.
He is not a Catholic who is at variance with the Roman Church in the doctrine of the faith.”
Hmmm….lets see….Sarah Mullaly is in full communion? Pagan idolatry is part of the Doctrine of Faith? False religions are in communion with the Church? Blessing disordered unions is part of the Doctrine of Faith? Blessing blocks of ice is part of the Doctrine of Faith? Leaving the Filioque out of the Creed is part of the Doctrine of Faith?
And the list goes on….and Cardinal Mueller, what about your home country, Germany? Do they uphold the Doctrine of Faith?
In other words keeping with the Pre Councilor Magisterium places one in schism…? Seriously ….?
thank you for your clarity...Cardinal Muller is out to lunch
🤣😂
This is the only kind of Mary Jane he should be smoking :)
😂….I never saw that coming!! Good one!
Good sport! Joy in the glorious freedom of the children of God
Coming from a guy who said you don't have to believe in a literal bodily resurrection of Christ. That's Catholicism 101, an absolute necessity of faith... who is at variance with the doctrine of the faith?
Or at best, his comments are highly highly ambiguous and word-salady regarding the resurrection.
Thank you, Mary Jane, for pointing out some of the present day contradictions that Cardinal Mueller traipses on by, pulling his skirts well up, so as to avoid reality. But it’s also historical mishmash since there are many examples of Patristic and medieval practices staying in concord with Rome in a variety of ways. Of course things were regularized later, but that doesn’t mean that the Patristic or medieval practices were somehow previously in schism. His naive presentism is strange since he must know these historical examples. “Answering” the SSPX should mean continuing the dialogue with them. But Cardinal Mueller seems to propose precisely the opposite!
So this cardinal says the SSPX is not following the true Catholic faith.
Let's see....
Allowing rainbow masses and celebrating and blessing sin, and sinful art, who would do that?
Allowing pachimamma art into the walls of scared Catholic spaces, who would do that?
The church in Germany, what on earth is going on there, who would allow that?
Saying that all gods are the same as Jesus and all religions lead to Jesus, AKA God, who would do that? Shall we go on?
VS
Consecrating faithful Catholic Bishops who follow cannon law and the Catechism, even though they asked for permission did not get the charity that is their due, whose churches are packed! Opposed the the former's attendance rate.
Now would someone PLEASE tell us, who is following the true Catholic faith of old?
I think we ALL know who. What is sad is that this cardinal standing up for the faith does not seem to know it at all. How? What is possessing these people?
Do they even know that Catholics want the Catholic faith of old not what is happening? Who are they listening to?
I'm kind of glad "schism!" and "protestant!" are thrown out like candy. It's kind of like Commies throwing out Racist! and Bigot!
It makes it much easier to not let such unjust vitriol affect you.
God bless the SSPX
Agreed, but what's a bit strange is that those words are used as slurs even while the Vatican seemingly has no issue with schismatics and Protestants (amongst others), and treats them as fine where they are.
Exactly
Do Lefebrists want to become Lutherans? What else could they expect if they defy the pope and appoint their own bishops? Let's pray they step back from the edge and ask, one more time, for talks directly with Pope Leo. SSPX would need to enter such talks rejecting the advice given by some of its clergy that Catholics should not attend the Novus Ordo Mass. SSPX must also acknowledge that it and Pope Leo cannot change the Vatican 2 documents, which ironically were voted for by Abp. Lefebvre. Instead, my hope is SSPX asks for the interpretation and implementation of those documents by the pope to be more consistent with the intent of Vatican 2 voters such as Pope Benedict and less radical than acts like Pope Francis's Abu Dhabi statement. Finally. I hope Pope Leo returns to Pope Benedict's approach to TLM. There is no rational reason to strangle the Mass we Catholics celebrated for tens of centuries, accurately called by many the Mass of the Saints.
Where is the charity for the SSPX in the Vatican?
I, of course, have no personal knowledge here, but I sense that the old Francis hierarchy that Pope Leo has kept on is very progressive and is giving him some bad advice. In particular, I'm referencing Cardinals Fernandez and Parolin. No father would turn away a son without trying everything to keep the son close. Instead, Pope Leo shuffled SSPX off to Cardinal Fernandez.
I don’t need the SSPX to tell me not to attend a Novus Ordo communal meal. My conscience, fully formed, does that for me.
I agree the NO could and should be more expressly sacrificial, but it really isn't just a communal meal. There is sacrificial language in the NO. Both Mass forms have beauty and both could no doubt be improved.
No,the N. O. Does not have beauty.
The NO is much closer to the Book of Common Prayer than the Latin Missae. Look it up. It’s Protestant.
Lutherans don't pray for the pope and bishop in the canon of the Mass everyday. The baptized Catholics of the SSPX do.
It's the Pope Pius V Mass which is about 500 years old.
Common misunderstanding. Pius V merely codified it. It already existed and had existed for centuries, possibly going back to the apostles. It's impossible to know because in the first centuries of the Church, much information is gone.
Of you look at a Roman missal from 1970 (the one codified by Pius V) and a missal from 100 years before, they're almost identical except for a few minor changes.
I meant missal of "1570" not 1970
But they weren't all Roman missals there are others which were banned by Pius V. And one notes that the entire New Testament was written in Greek, which certainly implies that the early Mass was not said in Latin but in Greek.
Only masses created within 200 years of Pius V were abrogated. No ancient Masses were cancelled.
The earliest Masses were not said in Latin, but that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
And yet none of those other old not abrogated Masses survived until the Novis Ordo picked up some of their canons.
Apparently, by appointing Bishops to carry on the magisterial teaching of the church, the SSPX is going to be in schism? I get it that they all want to hang on to V2 But personally I don’t see the fruit. I am not a TLM-er but the appeal to that mass has grown and I am considering it vs. all of the non-sense. Let them be a rite in the Church. I, like so many non-SSPX lay people, are getting very tired of where this has been going since my youth - post Vatican 2. The leaders and many Cardinals are allowing or promoting sinful attitudes and policies vs. helping people see Christ and His cross. I turned back from a life of sin because I met Christ and fell in love with HIM. They do not ever talk like that. Their anti-magisterial teaching defies anyone, including the priests in their diocese, to depart from THEIR teaching and dismantling of what we seek!! The “magisterial” or holy or mystical. If our church doesn’t wake up and purge all of this crap, this complex insanity, there are people who WILL NOT FOLLOW those misguided men. They are men. Men who are themselves deceived and who are trying to deceive others. Worse yet, they think their power and influence is something they can wield under the guise of “dialogue” or “synodality” but they are just weak men. Christ is mighty and valiant and will have the last Word. I hope to see “the gates lift high their heads to let Christ enter” soon! I can almost not tolerate them or this BS any more.
Tutti cullatone insieme. What can you expect from the whole wretched lot!
And I’ll just add this. Since according to this false church all religions lead to God, to salvation, the entire SSPX question is rendered moot.
The Synodal church is in schism with itself.
Well said. The plea of the lambs for faithful Shepherds. Stay strong in your faith brother, Jesus was King at His trial, He was King on the cross, as He was King at His resurrection. His suffering, and the suffering of the church in this crisis, will be to our benefit, and will, somehow, show He remains King of the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church.
Muller quoting Trent. Gaslighting par excellence.
We have to pray for Cardinal Muller, Cardinal Fernandez and Pope Leo XIV.
Humility is the seed of all virtues and Charity cannot be achieved without it.
Yes we do. Christ commanded us to pray for our enemies and those who hate us. That, mon Ami, is the Synodal religion headquartered in Rome, the seat of antichrist.
While Mueller roars, as he should, seeking clarity, it is time for we the faithful, as you have said so well, to pray and to be charitable.
With all due respect to Cardinal Mueller, who sometimes gets it right, the accusation that Rome is departing from the Catholic faith is not near as scandalous as the fact of it.
Facta non verba!
So the Rhine rushes into the Tiber, Cardinal Muller does a Nelsonian, puts the telescope to his blind eye, so could not see that there are a few Chinese appointed bishops that the Vatican only approved post hoc!!?? This is five star V2 relativism. These are bishops who have only ever read an adulterated Chinese bible and indulge in some Sino-eucharist mass and the SSPX is to be excommunicated and the Chinese bishops welcomed into the fold. Perhaps Cardinal Muller would be good enough to explain to a simple Catholic like me how this can be justified and where in the Catechist I might find justification of this ambiguity ??
Prevost totally avoids the question. Bishops appointed by a Communist regime are part of the Catholic Church but the SSPX is in schism. And Fr James Martin, the Sodomite pied piper gets more than just a pass, he’s told to “keep up the good work.”
I don’t know whether to cry or to die laughing.
Guess what? It's the silence of Cardinal Mueller, Cardinal Burke, and Cardinal Sarah, in the face of the apostasy destroying the Church under Bergoglio and Leo, that has fueled the crisis in the Church, to which the SSPX is prophetically responding! So, Cardinal Mueller, the ball is in your court -- to stand up against this apostasy - so that the schism will not have to occur!
One of the worst sins of every human is pride. It is very difficult to oneself recognize it. Why recognize it if you have the truth, you are the true one, you can judge whatever happens? And the the problem of every schismatic and/or heretic. In sum, that is the problem of the FSSPX ❕
Why do people from the bottom to the top cry "schism" at the disciplinary delict of episcopal consecration without the papal mandate? I believe that Francis already declared that Rome was 'detached" from the historic Catholic Church, and now Muller wants to ensure Prevost confirms the obvious schism with the faith of our ancestors.
Protestants claim to be united in essentials, and free on non-essentials. The only universal point of Protestant agreement is "Not Catholic". It seems too apparant that is is the sinodal church that has left the fold.
Cardinal Müller's proposal of commission is not only sound; it's the only answer. Obviously, such a commission should have been up and running months ago, and there is precious little time to get it staffed and running before Wednesday. I hope the Holy Father will announce that such a commission is in the works. But I fear that will not delay the consecrations. And I fear that Leo XIV is okay with that and will excommunicate the SSPX priests involved. Above all, I worry that the pope is sending a message about tradition--and not just about the TLM. Is he going to become Francis, only more so?
Cardinal Mueller roars, what he said, (what he meant). There must be no ambiguity (Bergoglio like responses are unCatholic, and not appropriate for the moment, be a College of Cardinals, be a Pope, act now). It is scandalous to charge the Church has departed from the faith (They have charged the Tiber has been polluted and theological scoundrels have left our right flank exposed, we must move decisively, to preserve the integrity of the faith). Form a new Ecclesia Dei (take this away from Tucho, and place the work of the church into the hands of the mature, the faithful, and charge them to heal the sins of Parolin, Paglia and Roche, so that we preserve faithful souls who recognize a crisis, but do not want schism).
If the Chinese Communist government can choose their own bishops, then why can't the SSPX? What is in the " secrete agreements " that Francis made with communists. Persecution of Catholics has increased since these " agreements." Cardinal Zen was jailed, once again, fairly recently, and Francis did nothing to defend him or to get his release. These agreements have hurt Catholics and actually aided the communists. Aiding communists, either directly or indirectly, results in automatic excommunication ( Pius XII ).
It's ironic too that the change in canon law about consecrations opposed to the roman pontiff as automatic excommunication, was only even introduced in response to the Chinese communists consecrating communist bishops. Before that, it was never ever a schismatix excommunicable offense.
The fundamental source of this situation has firstly recognised, as long as that is not happen we still keep this kind of actions.
1. If a separate group of Cardinals come together in a secret meeting to break the rules of the Council on the first meeting of the general assemblée, isn't that an objective sin not trusting the Holy Spirit and further an clear act against the Pope? Can that ever bring good fruits!? Do we see here the fruits of more than 60 years of fraternal war? Isn't it that the applauding Councilfathers were confirming this sin for themselves
2. Isn't it that calling for "embryonic ambiguities" into a Preparatory Council Document a clear betrayal concerning the Pope and the Council fathers, coming forth from not trusting the Holy Spirit? Can that ever bring good fruits!? And when some of these ambiguities are removed from the draft by the Central Preparatory Commission and then secretly put back in the final version, Isn't that à clear betrayal too. And when Ottaviani was explaining this most important betrayal concerning the scheme on Liturgy, his microphone was turned off halfway for being over time. Isn't that explaing such betrayal is of more importance than being overtime? Anyway the applauding Council fathers weren't they confirming the sin of the betrayal by the "embryonic ambiguities" by their applaus.
How can these acts bring forth good fruits?
We still see the fraternal war during all the years during and after the Council coming from the above betrayals